Tuesday, August 11, 2009

An Important Article About Health Care Reform

Salon - The Web - Tuesday, Aug 11, 2009

The "Death Panels" Are Already Here

Sorry, Sarah Palin -- Rationing of care? Private companies are already doing it, with sometimes fatal results

By Mike Madden -- Salon's Washington correspondent


"The future of healthcare in America, according to Sarah Palin, might look something like this: A sick 17-year-old girl needs a liver transplant. Doctors find an available organ, and they're ready to operate, but the bureaucracy -- or as Palin would put it, the "death panel" -- steps in and says it won't pay for the surgery. Despite protests from the girl's family and her doctors, the heartless hacks hold their ground for a critical 10 days. Eventually, under massive public pressure, they relent -- but the patient dies before the operation can proceed.

It certainly sounds scary enough to make you want to go show up at a town hall meeting and yell about how misguided President Obama's healthcare reform plans are. Except that's not the future of healthcare -- it's the present. Long before anyone started talking about government "death panels" or warning that Obama would have the government ration care, 17-year-old Nataline Sarkisyan, a leukemia patient from Glendale, Calif., died in December 2007, after her parents battled their insurance company, Cigna, over the surgery. Cigna initially refused to pay for it because the company's analysis showed Sarkisyan was already too sick from her leukemia; the liver transplant wouldn't have saved her life.

That kind of utilitarian rationing, of course, is exactly what Palin and other opponents of the healthcare reform proposals pending before Congress say they want to protect the country from. "Such a system is downright evil," Palin wrote, in the same message posted on Facebook where she raised the "death panel" specter. "Health care by definition involves life and death decisions."

Coverage of Palin's remarks, and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich's defense of them, over the weekend did point out that the idea that the reform plans would encourage government-sponsored euthanasia is one of a handful of deliberate falsehoods being peddled by opponents of the legislation. But the idea that only if reform passes would the government start setting up rationing and interfering with care goes beyond just the bogus euthanasia claim.

Opponents of reform often seem to skip right past any problems with the current system -- but it's rife with them. A study by the American Medical Association found the biggest insurance companies in the country denied between 2 and 5 percent of claims put in by doctors last year (though the AMA noted that not all the denials were improper). There is no national database of insurance claim denials, though, because private insurance companies aren't required to disclose such stats. Meanwhile, a House Energy and Commerce Committee report in June found that just three insurance companies kicked at least 20,000 people off their rolls between 2003 and 2007 for such reasons as typos on their application paperwork, a preexisting condition or a family member's medical history. People who buy insurance under individual policies, about 6 percent of adults, may be especially vulnerable, but the 63 percent of adults covered by employer-provided insurance aren't immune to difficulty.

"You're asking us to decide that the government is to be trusted," Gingrich -- who may, like Palin, be running for the GOP's presidential nomination in 2012 -- told ABC's "This Week With George Stephanopoulos" on Sunday. But as even a quick glance through news coverage of the last few years shows, private insurers are already doing what reform opponents say they want to save us from. (The insurance industry, pushing back against charges that they're part of the problem, said last month that "healthcare reform is far too important to be dragged down by divisive political rhetoric." The industry has long maintained that its decisions on what to cover are the result of careful investigations of each claim.) Here is a look at a handful of healthcare horror stories, brought to you by the current system. It took Salon staff less than an hour to round these up -- which might indicate how many other such stories are out there.

-- In June 2008, Robin Beaton, a retired nurse from Waxahachie, Texas, found out she had breast cancer and needed a double mastectomy. Two days before her surgery, her insurance company, Blue Cross, flagged her chart and told the hospital they wouldn't allow the procedure to go forward until they finished an examination of five years of her medical history -- which could take three months. It turned out that a month before the cancer diagnosis, Beaton had gone to a dermatologist for acne treatment, and Blue Cross incorrectly interpreted a word on her chart to mean that the acne was precancerous.

Not long into the investigation, the insurer canceled her policy. Beaton, they said, had listed her weight incorrectly when she bought it, and had also failed to disclose that she'd once taken medicine for a heart condition -- which she hadn't been taking at the time she filled out the application. By October, thanks to an intervention from her member of Congress, Blue Cross reinstated Beaton's insurance coverage. But the tumor she had removed had grown 2 centimeters in the meantime, and she had to have her lymph nodes removed as well as her breasts amputated because of the delay.

-- In October 2008, Michael Napientak, a doorman from Clarendon Hills, Ill., went to the hospital for surgery to relieve agonizing back pain. His wife's employer's insurance provider, a subsidiary of UnitedHealthCare, had issued a pre-authorization for the operation. The operation went well. But in April, the insurer started sending notices that it wouldn't pay for the surgery, after all; the family, not the insurance provider, would be on the hook for the $148,000 the hospital charged for the procedure. Pre-authorization, the insurance company explained, didn't necessarily guarantee payment on a claim would be forthcoming. The company offered shifting explanations for why it wouldn't pay -- first, demanding proof that Napientak had tried less expensive measures to relieve his pain, and then, when he provided it, insisting that it lacked documentation for why the surgery was medically necessary. Napientak's wife, Sandie, asked her boss to help out, but with no luck. Fortunately for the Napientaks, they were able to attract the attention of a Chicago Tribune columnist before they had to figure out how to pay the six-figure bill -- once the newspaper started asking questions, the insurer suddenly decided, "based on additional information submitted," to cover the tab, after all.


-- David Denney was less than a year old when he was diagnosed in 1995 with glutaric acidemia Type 1, a rare blood disorder that left him severely brain damaged and unable to eat, walk or speak without assistance. For more than a decade, Blue Cross of California -- his parents' insurance company -- paid the $1,200 weekly cost to have a nurse care for him, giving him exercise and administering anti-seizure medication.

But in March 2006, Blue Cross told the Denney family their claims had exceeded the annual cost limit for his care. When they wrote back, objecting and pointing out that their annual limit was higher, the company changed its mind -- about the reason for the denial. The nurse's services weren't medically necessary, the insurers said. His family sued, and the case went to arbitration, as their policy allowed. California taxpayers, meanwhile, got stuck with the bill -- after years of paying their own premiums, the Denney family went on Medi-Cal, the state's Medicaid system.

-- Patricia Reilling opened an art gallery in Louisville, Ky., in 1987, and three years later took out an insurance policy for herself and her employees. Her insurance provider, Anthem Health Plans of Kentucky, wrote to her this June, telling her it was canceling her coverage -- a few days after it sent her a different letter detailing the rates to renew for another year and billing her for July.

Reilling thinks she knows the reason for the cutoff, though -- she was diagnosed with breast cancer in March 2008. That kicked off a year-long battle with Anthem. First the company refused to pay for an MRI to locate the tumors, saying her family medical history didn't indicate she was likely to have cancer. Eventually, it approved the MRI, but only after she'd undergone an additional, painful biopsy. Her doctor removed both of her breasts in April 2008. In December, she went in for reconstructive plastic surgery -- and contracted a case of MRSA, an invasive infection. In January of this year, Reilling underwent two more surgeries to deal with the MRSA infection, and she's likely to require another operation to help fix all the damage. The monthly bill for her prescription medicines -- which she says are mostly generics -- is $2,000; the doctors treating her for the MRSA infection want $280 for each appointment, now that she's lost her insurance coverage. When she appealed the decision to cancel her policy, asking if she could keep paying the premium and continue coverage until her current course of treatment ends, the insurers wrote back with yet another denial. But they did say they hoped her health improved."


And this is the system that Right-Wing Town Hall protesters are trying to maintain? Can it be that some of these protesters and disrupters are simply shills sent out into the streets by the insurance companies? Like the Brooks Brothers rioters in Florida in 2000 who disrupted the counting of votes in the Bush-Gore election?

108 comments:

Reaper said...

NO, NO, NO, It can't be true. These are the cons benevolent insurance companies. They love their patients and are as altruistic as Mother Teressa (she's dead if you cons hadn't noticed). See, the cons yammer, it proves that insurance companies aren't evil, as they only denied 5 percent of claims (after they weeded out all the bad apples). Comon 1 out of 20 is nothing (I bet the 1's price far exceeds the average claim. That is, 1 out of 20 doesn't sound bad unless that 1 is a 100k denial).

But, But, But, the cons spout in tireless tirades of nonsense, we know government would make health care even worse, as it's so incompetent. Look how bad Medicare sucks, look at the US military, look at the post office, look at how much better private schools do as compared to public schools (once you take minorities into account), look at how foreign "socialized" medicine sucks, look at the police force.

The cons know best as they have shown the last 8 years.

Cons don't believe in the real world, cons only believe the fairy tales they are told, and are rather like little children, in that regard.

Reaper said...

Why do cons hate reality? Is reality too painful?

Brandon said...

"Among the sample of new SSDI entitlees in 1995 11.8% died during the waiting period."

source:
http://journals.lww.com/lww-medicalcare/Abstract/2004/04000/The_Cost_of_Eliminating_the_24_Month_Medicare.12.aspx

Reaper said...

"Among the sample of new SSDI entitlees in 1995 11.8% died during the waiting period."

---

What are you talking about? The article seems to say there is a waiting period for Medicare, once you go on Social Security.

Reaper said...

Hey CJP, please consider a post like this some day.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/12/officials-see-rise-in-mil_n_257128.html

Reaper said...

"The attacks on Emanuel are a reminder that there is a narrow slice of Americans who not only don't trust government but have also come to regard it as a dark conspirator in their lives. This peculiar brand of distrust helps create the conditions for fast-moving fear-mongering, especially on complex and emotionally charged topics like the life and death of the elderly and infirm."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1915835,00.html

Cons are such a simple lot, and with their delusions, might even be dangerous. But thank God the typical con is cowardly and only a blow hard, like OLielly, Hannity, and Limbaugh to mention a few.

Reaper said...

Brandon, check this out.

http://www.blogger.com/profile/10420424552853058974

This is a defensive item for when one or many cowardly con militants starts a riot, or takeover of our fine nation. Note the green laser. That thing is so bright you can see the shaft of the beam hanging in the air in full daylight. Shines bright green dot well over 100 yards. Slugs and buckshot are good for at least 100 yards. Plus has a super bright flashlight for con night attacks. I'm mounting night vision scope next. Probably not much worry though, as cons are scared of the dark. :-)

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Brandon said...

yes a waiting period for medicare and 11.8% of people die while in that waiting period. You dont have a two year waiting period with private insurance, you just have to pay for it yourself. Rather than having someone else pay your bills so you dont have to.

Brandon said...

Reaper, sweet rifle! What is it? You better look out, CJP would love to make sure you cant own that. CJP wants everyone to defend themselves with plastic forks.

craighouchin said...

Whether you are for a Health Care reform bill or not, I don't think there in any disagreement that no bill should be voted on before our Congressmen and Senators have read and understood the full thing.

www.honorinoffice.org

http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=hfhO38CPlAI

Reaper said...

"Reaper, sweet rifle!"

--

JC, BB, that's a GD shotgun. One of a kind... Im worried Brandon buddy. Help me, help me...

Brandon said...

"JC, BB, that's a GD shotgun. One of a kind... Im worried Brandon buddy. Help me, help me..."
-Reaper

Why dont you stand up for you right to own guns? CJP is voicing why you should be stripped of your weapons.

Reaper said...

Ur a nut BB. I carry every day. 24 by 24, .45. im waiting fer the nuts. amen...

Brandon said...

"Ur a nut BB"
-Reaper

Why, because I believe democrats would love to create more gun control laws?

Reaper said...

Stop the lies BB. Thanks.

Brandon said...

What lies?

Brandon said...

I dont lie! I maybe misinformed on a topic, but I dont lie! Where am I misinformed?

Reaper said...

Why, because I believe democrats would love to create more gun control law

---

I love my guns. Pleasure. Pain. What dont ye get?????

Brandon said...

Are you saying that democrats as a whole dont want more gun control?

Brandon said...

"I believe..."
Brandon

Those two words make it impossible for you to know weather I am lying or not.

How would you know what I believe?

Like I said before, I am not a liar.

Reaper said...

Democrats, Obama, etc, me, etc, we are progressives. JFC, get over your GOD.

Reaper said...

BB, it wont be long...

Brandon said...

Why do you keep going to the god thing? Have I ever said I was religious?

Obama does support gun control.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6860231852229872583&ei=2HaDSsb4Ap76rAKk4sCXDw&q=obama+gun+control&hl=en

Reaper said...

jc, bb, go listen to u2. bono...

Brandon said...

What is your stance on gun control? Do you believe that progessives dont want gun control? Why do you like Bono? He is a total wimp.

Reaper said...

oh my dear GOD, bono is the man!!!

love is blindness... love is blindess...

Shotguns.

All the great writers talk about shotguns, If only you would hear... Dear Brandon... What wont ye see???

Brandon said...

"All the great writers talk about shotguns, If only you would hear... Dear Brandon... What wont ye see???!"
-Reaper

Thats great that writers talk about shotguns. What is your stance on gun control? Can you not answer a simple question. Are you smoking pot or drinking?

Reaper said...

"What is your stance on gun control?"

----

JMFC. im keeping it simple. my beef is with religion...

Brandon said...

Fine, whats your beef with religion and why are you telling me?

Why dont you want to talk about gun control?

Reaper said...

"Why dont you want to talk about gun control? "

---

jc mofo, i love my guns. Obama is not talking about gun control (he is a very smart man).

...

what are we discussing???

i hate pot, i hate marijuana (it makes me fking paranoid). do u get what i am talking about??? ....

Brandon said...

"...i love my guns. Obama is not talking about gun control..."
-Reaper

Would you opinion change of Obama if he were to ban assault rifles, semi auto weapons or hand guns?

Brandon said...

"i hate pot, i hate marijuana (it makes me fking paranoid). do u get what i am talking about???"
-Reaper

No, I have never done pot or any other illegal drugs. So I dont get what your talking about.

Reaper said...

Wow, was I ever snocked last night.

Reaper said...

Obama will not take our guns. He is smart, he knows strict gun control is untenable, today.

Reaper said...

Oh how my heart pines for the beloved insurance companies the cons worship.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/12/health.industry.whistleblower/index.html

Should we just de regulate the insurance companies more? Would that solve the problems? Maybe we should just cut their taxes more?

Reaper said...

"Our elected officials are passing laws which they haven't read, understood or researched. This makes it very easy for special interests to slip whatever they want into the law. This is criminal misconduct on the part of our legislators."

--

Your right Craig. Hopefully Obama can simplify and edify the health care proposal.

Reaper said...

Brandon, are you one of the wing nuts that will move to Texas or Alaska when it secedes?

CJP said...

No. Brandon will secede before any state does.

Reaper said...

"It's become evident this week that, unless cooler heads prevail, this modern breed of Fire-Eaters are lurching ever closer to an armed assault of some sort. "

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/malkin-and-fox-news-are-s_b_258051.html

CJP, not sure how you feel about guns, but it does seem like the nuts are about to go off. Prudence might dictate being prepared.

The only good thing about the cowardly cons going off the deep end, is many will reap a long prison term, richly deserved, for so many misdeeds.

CJP said...

Of course, they will do something violent. It's in their nature.

Reaper said...

What worries me more than anything is that one of the cowardly nuts will assassinate someone. Then we're talking major riots, maybe even civil war. They are of such simple minds, I wouldn't put anything past many of them, particularly the religious ones.

CJP said...

Reaper, if there is no assassination, that would be a miracle. We have lived through JFK, RFK, MLK, Timothy McVeigh, the recent attack on the DC Holocaust Museum, etc.

I don't know how religious you are, Reaper, but do you truly believe in miracles?

Reaper said...

I don't believe in imaginary beings, and if I did, I would be preparing for the worst as all the good books predict the apocalypse. And if the apocalypse does occur, I have a feeling a religious nut somewhere helped it get started. And of course that nut, if its a US nut, will be of the cowardly con persuasion.

CJP said...

"Cowardly Cons" is a great phrase. We're gonna get it out there.

Reaper said...

"We're gonna get it out there."

Yes, this site needs some more cons. They wear out pretty fast. Whatever bait it takes to get them here. And the cons all think they're tough guys, like Olielly, Hannity, Limpbone, so pretty sure they don't like the word cowardly.

CJP said...

"Cowardly" is the last thing Cons think that they are -- even though we know they are. They think they're so macho. But, as you say, they are delusional.

Brandon said...

"Obama will not take our guns. He is smart, he knows strict gun control is untenable, today."
-Reaper

Why would you say that about someone who has consistently voted in support of gun control?

Brandon said...

Maybe you smart Democrats could explain this to me!

I was talking with a board member of my local hospital, when he informed me the medicare and medicaid patients cost the hospitals money and that the hospitals make up those costs by charging private insurance companies more.

So if more people shift to a government option, wouldnt that further increase the costs to privately insured individuals?

What a scam!

Latest polls showing 53% oppose and 42% support the governments reform of the health care system.

source:
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/support_for_congressional_health_care_reform_falls_to_new_low

Reaper said...

"Why would you say that about someone who has consistently voted in support of gun control? "

---

I voted for Obama, and I am not worried in the slightest about gun control. Unless there are 3-4 mass killings, then he may do something, like they all try and do something after the public uproar. So maybe you should write to the Faux News and tell them not to egg on their simple minded audiences and give real reason for gun control.

Plus, everything I have will be grand fathered in, just like it always is.

Reaper said...

"What a scam".

---

Yes it is a scam that the insurance companies can not or will not provide affordable health care to the elderly. I guess that would cut into the fat cat ceo's compensation.

Brandon why do we even have Medicare, when we have the benevolent insurance companies?

Brandon said...

Did you know that there was a market for the elderly before medicare came along?

Reaper said...

"Did you know that there was a market for the elderly before medicare came along?"

----

There still is private insurance available for the elderly, if they want to pay 25k per year. You think Buffet is on Medicare? I applaud you Brandon for getting your parents off Medicare and into private health care. If that's where you want to spend your money, you have that freedom.

Why do cons hate freedom so much?

Brandon said...

There was affordable health insurance for the elderly before medicare came along.

Brandon said...

"I guess that would cut into the fat cat ceo's compensation."
-Reaper

You really dont get it! The administation fees are a fraction of the costs with health insurance. Most of the costs come from the hospitals. You know, where the private market has to pay for all the people on medicare.

Reaper said...

"administation fees"

----

Brandon, you use your beloved insurance company's calculation of "administation fees".

You nuts are all worried about 150 billion per year to cover 40 million new Americans without insurance, when the savings from admin private insurance alone is well over 400 billion per year (by many calculations it's much more than that).

Brandon buddy, you trust way to much. Didn't your demigod Ronny Raygun with regards to arms control, say "Trust, but verify."? You really trust the insurance company's figures? Do those figures include the admin costs of doctors? It has been stated that each doctor must hire 3 paper pushers to deal with all the insurance paperwork. Especially having to resubmit paperwork etc.
Do you believe that your honored and beloved insurance companies are using that cost in their calculations? And what about denied claims? Hmmm, I wonder what category that falls into (ceo bonus category)?

JC Brandon, all we want is the freedom to choose. I just want to be free Brandon, free from the clutches of the evil insurance companies. Why don't you like freedom Brandon?

Also, Brandon, doctors are free to decline Medicare. And sure as rain, Medicare will have to raise their payment fees very soon if the docs keep refusing.

Reaper said...

So Brandon, are you going to write Faux News, and Limbone, and the others, and tell them to please quit egging their cowardly con audience to do something violent? Do you want gun control Brandon? What are you doing to prevent it? Can not one clear voice, like yours, rise above the cons cacophony of lies? Even if we know in the end, it's mostly a useless attempt at creating dissonance in such an irrational group. Thanks buddy, we do want to keep our guns.

Reaper said...

"Ronald Reagan turned out to be wrong. Most of us are so happy, in our sunset years, to have access to Medicare, and yes, we are still free. The lesson here is simple—the hysterical exaggerations that are being blasted from the airwaves are almost identical to what we heard then."

----

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/madeleine-m-kunin/the-truth-about-socialize_b_257936.html

GD commie.

Baneofyou said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Baneofyou said...

I don't claim to be a political expert or anything, but every time I ask someone what has Obama done I get no answer. I am not a right wing bigot but I am also not a socialist, but all it seems like all the democratic party wants to do is rob the rich and give to the lazy who refuse to work. Why should we reward people who refuse to better themselves? That seems to be the only priority. If someone would be kind enough to answer my questions I would love to hear it.

Reaper said...

what has Obama done

Obama has saved us from economic collapse. Ask Krugman, Princeton professor, Nobel Laureate in economics. He says we were on the verge of financial collapse.

Do you realize that the green paper we push around is only paper? It's all about trust. The trust was nearly broken, before Obama stepped in.

----

democratic party wants to do is rob the rich and give to the lazy who refuse to work

All the progressives want is health care. And the health care we want is very similar to public education we currently have. We are the last in the world to adopt public health care.

Most of us are progressives, not socialists, not democrats. We learn from our mistakes. The republicans don't learn. Look at how popular Palin is, even after all W's failed policies.

Are you a hot young woman?

Baneofyou said...

You are right the trust was broken and bush did have failed policies, but does that mean we all should fillet him? Take Carter for example look at what his administration did and not many democrats crucify him the way they do Bush. I have mixed views on were I stand politically mostly I think both parties have a lot to offer and a lot that they really need to go double check. Also Britain's public healthcare system is failing badly or so I have heard I have no source to back me up other then the biased ranting's of Mr.Rush.
And to answer your question no I am not

Reaper said...

Baneofyou, Carter was wrong, we all learned (I agreed with Ronny Raygun, communism is bad). Clinton learned. He reformed welfare. He let business run a little looser.

Progressives learn. Conservatives, by definition, like the old ways and are stuck in the old ways. Think blood letting.

Rush Limbone is a pandering demagogue.

Are you female?

Brandon said...

"JC Brandon, all we want is the freedom to choose. I just want to be free Brandon, free from the clutches of the evil insurance companies. Why don't you like freedom Brandon?"
-Reaper

Then why dont I have any choice under your plan? Why cant I choose not to pay for it and not to recieve any care from it?

You keep stating that I am against freedom, but your the one who keeps promoting government control.

Reaper said...

JC Brandon, all I want is another choice. Why can't the government provide another choice? I don't use the USPS for packages exclusively. And I hardly every send anything in an envelope, as everything like that is done online.

Brandon said...

"JC Brandon, all I want is another choice. Why can't the government provide another choice?"
-Reaper

I am fine with you having a choice, but I want one to. Dont ask me to pay for your choice. Why cant we do that? Just one big co-opt option for everyone who wants on this plan. That way it wont cost a dime to the tax payers.

Reaper said...

Brandon, I know you cons hate the poor, and I know hating the poor is mentioned in the bible many times. But, we pay for the poor's health care now. We don't just let them die on the street.

I personally want away from the insurance companies. I dont trust them. I don't want to go bankrupt. They will fk you at the first chance. If you get a bad cancer or ??? and see a 500k+ bill, you will see the companies in action. Good luck.

Brandon said...

"I personally want away from the insurance companies. I dont trust them. I don't want to go bankrupt."
-Reaper

THEN START YOUR OWN INSURANCE COMPANY!!! If they are so evil and it would be easy for you to run one better, then why dont you start one?

As for the poor, conservative actually like helping the poor rather than just giving them money. When was the last time you got off your ass and helped someone. When was the last time you walked by and saw someone dying in the street? Hospitals are required to give someone care, insured or not!

Reaper said...

"Hospitals are required to give someone care, insured or not! "

---

Exactly, we are paying for it now. Lets get the gd money grubbing insurance companies out of the business. Did I post this from Time Magazine?

"Like most developed countries, Britain ranks above the U.S. in most health measurements. Its citizens have a longer life expectancy and lower infant mortality, the country has more acute-care hospital beds per capita and fewer deaths due to surgical or medical mishaps. Britain achieves these results while spending proportionally less on health care than the U.S. — about $2,500 per person in Britain compared to $6,000 in the U.S. For these reasons, the World Health Organization (WHO) ranked Britain 18th in an international league table of health-care systems and the U.S. 37th. However, there are measures by which the U.S. outperforms Britain: for instance, the U.S. has lower cancer mortality rates."

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1916570,00.html

Brandon are you that blind to the cons dogma?

Brandon said...

Do you know anyone who has private insurance, cancer and didnt get covered? I know of three people, one was my close friend who passed away at 21. His insurance payed for what they said they would. Another is one of my family members, she is only 4yrs old. She has a type of blood cancer and her insurance is going to keep paying year after year until they reach 2 million dollars. The last is my bosses step dad and they are getting covered also and they are now paying several hundred dollars a month, but he is alive and the insurance company is paying thousands per month.

What about you?

Brandon said...

"Britain ranks above the U.S. in most health measurements. Its citizens have a longer life expectancy and lower infant mortality, the country has more acute-care hospital beds per capita and fewer deaths due to surgical or medical mishaps."
-Reaper

Would any of this change under Obama care?

Brandon said...

When was the last time you walked by and saw someone dying in the street?

Brandon said...

If they are so evil and it would be easy for you to run one better, then why dont you start one?

Reaper said...

"Would any of this change under Obama care? "

---

Why wouldn't it change under Obama? If he saves billions and billions, as seemingly 36 other advanced nations currently do, compared to the US? Then if he takes that saved money and rolls it back into the system. Are they that much smarter than us?

Reaper said...

Brandon said...

When was the last time you walked by and saw someone dying in the street?

---

Brandon, have ever seen somone dying in the street? NO, because we pay to have them taking care of, when we absolutely positively have to. Why not pay earlier, rather than later? 150 billion is all it will cost to give them decent insurance. That's con chicken feed. You cons blow 600+ billion a year on defense, and we don't even need it. We spend more on defense than rest of the world combined (the last I heard, it may of changed).

Brandon said...

"Then if he takes that saved money and rolls it back into the system. Are they that much smarter than us?"
-Reaper

What money? It is still going to cost the tax payers $150 billion a year. He hasnt saved the government a dime!

Brandon said...

"Brandon, have ever seen somone dying in the street? NO, because we pay to have them taking care of, when we absolutely positively have to. Why not pay earlier, rather than later?"
-Reaper

Why not pay later? Why not just let people take care of themselves? You progessives, liberals and democrats just think that people are dying everwhere! 15% of Americans are uninsured, most of them can afford it and are in perfect health. So why dont they buy it?

Reaper said...

"Then if he takes that saved money and rolls it back into the system. Are they that much smarter than us?"
-Reaper

What money? It is still going to cost the tax payers $150 billion a year. He hasnt saved the government a dime!

---

JC, if the gd Euro idiots can do it so much more cheaply, you're saying the US can't? (Favored con tactic coming up here) What, are you unpatriotic Brandon? Do you think the US is so incompetent that we cant match 36 countries above us. Maybe you should move to another country. (end of con favored tactic)

Reaper said...

"So why dont they buy it"

---

Ahhhh, dear Brandon, Obama is going to force them, force everyone to buy insurance. Just like most states force people to have car insurance.

I can hear you already; "The Gd commies always telling me what to do."

Thats what your con idiots sound like. Except you say, "I'm taking up arms, as I know I am right. I'm not going anywhere. The constitution says, blah, blah, blah."

Brandon said...

Are you listening to yourself? Your trying to sell people on the idea that if we go with Obama care we will all save money and get healthy. WRONG! it is still going to cost us money and doctors wont get paid as much. Regulating pay isnt what America was built on! Freedom.

Maybe the Europeans are healthier because they have different lifestlyes and diets. Did you ever think of that? Since they are healthier, maybe that is why they spend less on healthcare. Maybe the answer to our problem is that Americans should get their fat asses off the couch and eat less, not Obamacare.

Brandon said...

"Obama is going to force them, force everyone to buy insurance."
-Reaper

Maybe we should allow hospitals to refuse service to them. That way the hospital has freedom and so does the injured individual. FREEDOM

Why do you hate freedom?

Reaper said...

"Maybe the answer to our problem is that Americans should get their fat asses off the couch and eat less, not Obamacare."

---

Brandon buddy (bb), the Euro doctors are paid incentives to get their fat ass patients off the couch. WOW, new way of thinking, eh. Progress.

Brandon said...

"Brandon buddy (bb), the Euro doctors are paid incentives to get their fat ass patients off the couch. WOW, new way of thinking, eh. Progress."
-Reaper

WOW, thats the first time I have heard anyone say that! Has medicare been giving incentives to doctors?

Reaper said...

"WOW, thats the first time I have heard anyone say that! Has medicare been giving incentives to doctors? "

---

No, its a new idea, BB. Something new. Progress...

Brandon said...

You get my vote on that idea! The rest of the Obama care plan can go in the trash!

Reaper said...

"You get my vote on that idea!"

---

Obama is smart, give him a chance. He's in a tough fight with reality right now. Palin, and the other cons, are in touch with the big guy (upstairs), and therefore out of touch with reality. Amen.

Brandon, life is life. When the the cons are involved, we can't just say life is life. The progressives have to step lightly, else thy con nuts are offended. Are you following me?

Brandon said...

I wanted to give Obama a chance, I didnt like McCain! But Obama has spent like a drunken sailor and wants to continue to spend even more. He has a insane budge and wants to ring money out of anyone who has some.

Brandon said...

"Palin, and the other cons, are in touch with the big guy (upstairs), and therefore out of touch with reality. Amen."
-Reaper

You keep saying your a progessive and that conservative just live in the pass, but you sound alot like one of those people who told Columbus the earth was flat. How do you know someone is watching over you??? I dont know, but I cant say their isn't someone watching over you.

Reaper said...

"I wanted to give Obama a chance, I didnt like McCain! But Obama has spent like a drunken sailor and wants to continue to spend even more. He has a insane budge and wants to ring money out of anyone who has some. "

---

BB, give him a chance. He'll balance the budget, just like Clinton did. RayGun, Bush the wiser, and W, spent more than any others in history (comparatively). Get over it, get in touch with reality. They are only "spending" paper. Do you understand???

Reaper said...

"How do you know someone is watching over you??? I dont know, but I cant say their isn't someone watching over you. "

---

I can say no one is watching over me.

Einstein, Jefferson, and others said there was a God, but he created the universe, then he walked off.

I can live with that God.

Brandon said...

"He'll balance the budget, just like Clinton did. RayGun, Bush the wiser, and W, spent more than any others in history (comparatively). Get over it, get in touch with reality. They are only "spending" paper. Do you understand???"
-Reaper

Dont you understand? For a progessive you dont pay much attention to history. Clinton has a deficit budget and so did all the other presidents you mentioned. Obama has an even larger budget than any president before him. You cant keep spending, that is what got us into this financial mess!

Brandon said...

"I can say no one is watching over me."
-Reaper

HOW? You cant be 100% sure! You maybe 99.9% sure but never 100%. There is always a chance.

Reaper said...

"You cant keep spending, that is what got us into this financial mess!"

---

BB, I am struggling, in how to put into words, what is going on...

Please read "The Road". Lots of blood, lots of guts, and its very simple, very short. Your grandchildren will be reading it (in school).

You ever read "The Old Man and The Sea"? Hemingway? He won a Nobel prize for that book. Similar to "The Road", but "The Road" is better. Much better.

Reaper said...

"HOW? You cant be 100% sure! You maybe 99.9% sure but never 100%. There is always a chance."

---

I'm 100 percent sure.

Brandon said...

"I'm 100 percent sure."
-Reaper

You can wine and cry but you can never prove it!

Brandon said...

People borrowing money that they shouldnt have!

That is what got us into this mess. You can point fingers all day long, but the one to blame your financial situation on, is you.

Reaper said...

"You can wine and cry but you can never prove it! "

--

I was just getting to that.

Prove what?

You can make all the good books say whatever you want. What are you trying to prove or disprove?

The good books are just fking words... And those words can be twisted into meaning whatever you want. Ask the 9/11 guys. Read the Quaran. The 9/11 guys were right, according to the words in their book...

Brandon said...

I am not saying the bible proves there is a god. I am saying you cant prove there isnt one.

Reaper said...

"People borrowing money that they shouldnt have"

--

I agree BB, regulation should prevent people from over extending themselves. It worked in the past. Then W came along. Thanks BB for electing W.

Reaper said...

"I am not saying the bible proves there is a god. I am saying you cant prove there isnt one."

---

Right BB, and I can live with a God that created the universe, then walked off. Makes sense to me. I can live with him. Personal God, no way. I can't live with him.

Brandon said...

"I agree BB, regulation should prevent people from over extending themselves. It worked in the past. Then W came along. Thanks BB for electing W."
-Reaper

Maybe, the solution is to let people learn their lesson, rather than regulating them. Not everyone fits into a nice little box the way you would like it. Some people can borrow money when another person that is similair cant.

Why do you hate freedom? Why wont you let people take a risk and fail?

Brandon said...

"Right BB, and I can live with a God that created the universe, then walked off. Makes sense to me. I can live with him. Personal God, no way. I can't live with him."
-Reaper

Sounds like your opening your mind up today. Good job!

Reaper said...

"Maybe, the solution is to let people learn their lesson, rather than regulating them"

---

It didn't work BB. We tried it under W, and we need regulation. We just went through it. And you cons nearly brought the entire US of A down with the liars. "The Smartest Guys in the Room", were just smoke and mirrors.

People are shoveling paper. Do you understand? Paper... It's all paper... Stocks, bonds, money, it's paper...

Brandon said...

" It's all paper... Stocks, bonds, money, it's paper..."
-Reaper

Thats why I just bought a piece of property! But I am still investing 10% of my income into mutual funds. Its on sale!

Brandon said...

"It didn't work BB. We tried it under W, and we need regulation."
-Reaper

Forcing banks to give out bad loans!

Can you say Barney Frank?

Reaper said...

Can you say Barney Frank?

---

BB, you hate homos, it's in your con blood.

CJP said...

Reaper, you're on fire now. You are hotter than a pistol.

Two fabulous new insights: Conservatives hate the poor; and Conservatives hate homos.

Sock it to the bastards, Reaper.

Brandon said...

"Two fabulous new insights: Conservatives hate the poor; and Conservatives hate homos."
-CJP

You really have nothing to back either topic! Liberals hate the poor because they wont allow them to help themselves and you accuse me of hating homos because I called Barney Frank a liars, which he is!